[SPOILERS] Discussion Thr

Chatterbox: Inkwell

[SPOILERS] Discussion Thr

[SPOILERS] Discussion Thread for the story we're planning!

If you're not Hex or Flamarestii and don't want spoilers on our story, please don't read this thread!

Anyway, we can plan and discuss more here! 

submitted by Jaybells@Hex&Flame, age Obscure, Lost in the Universe
(February 15, 2022 - 8:42 am)

Yay! Thanks for working so hard on this, Jaybells! The language feels very natural for a desert civilization. A few questions for pronunciation, since I'm not as familiar with languages as you: ñ is said "nya" like Spanish, right? And for words like Tash'tha (Grain/corn/maize/wheat/rice), does the  ' show that it's two syllables, or does it show something else? 

submitted by Flamarestii
(May 13, 2022 - 1:38 pm)

Ooh, yep, good questions!

The 'n' with a tilde (ñ) is indeed meant to represent a "ny"-sound, like in Spanish! ^^

Apostrophes, so far, are either meant to show separation in sounds (like in Tash'tha, I have a difficult time reading it if there's no space/indicator between the 'sh' and 'th' bits; or chikra'yokh, because the 'a' and 'y' sounds should stay separate instead of blending in to an 'ay' sound, as in 'okay'), or otherwise because the word/phrase is long or a compound, so the apostrophes represent breaks in individual thoughts. I might change those to dashes, spaces or some other visual cue instead in the future, though, as it could very easily become confusing...

Anyway, ask away is there's anything else you're wondering! :) 

submitted by Jaybells@Flamie, Lost, somewhere
(May 13, 2022 - 4:59 pm)

Okay, thanks! I think the apostrophe is a great way to denote a space. 

submitted by Flamarestii
(May 17, 2022 - 1:15 pm)

Ok, updating that I have been considering the mythology a bit more and slowly adding to the vocabulary list recently!

On the topic of mythology, if we are going with the initial story we came up with, I have some upcoming character designs for them... I'll show them to you people next time.

I'm also thinking Water will have an Osirus-like death, and then a dark "rebirth" where she's more vengeful (think, kinda like Hathor turning into Sekhemet; a necessary if not slightly unfriendly existence to humanity, seeing as water can be both nourishing and dangerous.) Both of the references are to Egyptian mythology, in case you're unfamiliar. :)

I'll leave the final say to Hex to figure out how to present that, if she's still ok with writing it out. As always, we'd appreciate input from anyone on the process to getting there, though. 

Also, do you think that fire should have more to do with Sky or Earth? I was thinking Earth initially, like volcanoes, but I don't think they'd know much about that in their geographic location... The sun is a much more obvious source of 'fire.' However the rising and setting sun can be seen as the Earth "birthing" Fire and sending it to sky, where it could then be killed, by one of the main three, probably either a furious mother-Earth or Sky in petty revenge/unhealthy guilt for the death/betrayal the two inflicted on Water... I'm not sure, so I'll listen to what you all think before I get too invested in either path. (Although... maybe for some proper drama, Earth is furious at Fire for siding with Sky, and I'm a blind rage goes to kill it, but finds Sky has already done the deed. She then sinks into grief and blah blah blah, we'll figure the rest out later on. That would be quite theatrical, hehehe~)

Also I think the main three should be female(or a somewhat feminine in nature/serving a similar function in whatever direction we take this in, since they are creation in the end, and typically only women are able to produce offspring.) Then, fire could be more ambiguous, but do chip in if you have any options on that, too. We might come up with a whole new way of reproduction/gender system, thus negating this issue altogether. 

As a cool side note, maybe we should consider semi-beast dieties? Or should we be more like the Greeks and consider anything not fully human as monstrous? Remember this is only one culture, and we can have tiny off-shoots or other tribes/civilization with other differing beliefs, so don't worry too much about not including every cool thing we can into this one. :)

See y'all soon! Ciao~ 

submitted by Jaybells, Lost in Thought
(May 19, 2022 - 8:40 pm)

I'd love to see your character designs! I'm planning to follow the main story, so those would probably apply.

Water dying and being reborn as a darker deity would be cool, or maybe just a flip side, distinguishing winter/summer every year by something that changes the opinion/emotion of Water for that time. Or summer could be Water having a sore throat or hibernating or something, and winter being the opposite.

For Fire I was thinking it could be an offshoot of Sky because if she gets really angry maybe lightning could shoot around. That would be convenient for Glass (if she exists) because lightning + sand makes glass. However Lightning could also be a minor deity and Fire could be born from Earth like the sun, rising every day to join Sky but being killed by an irate Earth yet made anew each day with fresh hope. We could also incorporate some winter/summer in there, like the days are shorter when the cold makes Earth and Sky grumpier while Water becomes more feisty.

Kind of like Egypten mythology, we could have more than one myth that hopelessly intersect until nobody knows who's who and what's when and how the where became the it because whosis whatsis and who. (That's supposed to make no sense, I'm sorry if it does). That would allow for different story plots or twists on religion.

Female sounds good for Sky and Earth/Sand, because those are kind of the "creators." For Water I was thinking gender neutral or fluid, because Water seems kind of shifty (for example high tide and low tide, ice liquid and gas, or other such possible differences). Fire also seems that way, kind of ever-changing. Also, I'm supportive of a compleately new gender + reproductive system, that would be interesting (and might make sense, cause they're gods and therefore might not subscribe to the typical systems humans/other creatures have).

What are you thinking for semi-beasts? In egyptian mythology, there's Ammit the Devourer who weighs the feather and the dead's heart to tell if they've sinned or not. Would that count as a deity, or just an immortal pet-type creature? Contrariwise, there could be semi-beast gods/immortals that humans/whoever lives on whatever main planet (ex. Serai) could still view as monstorus, but gods view as normal. We could have dffering points of view and prejudices based on species/location.

Also the language is awesome! Were you thinking it would be for just humans/main species or would the gods use it too?

General questions to ponder:

- Where would the deities live? On some secluded place, think Mount Olympus with the greeks, or would they live in human/main species reincarnations down on Earth? It sounds like they're the Earth and Sky, so they could just be sitting there, or they could have mini models that could come talk.

- Would the gods control the human/main species's stories? Is everything planned out or is it up to the characters. In some books the gods are up in their heaven-place playing dice and betting with the souls of the mortals on the ground. That introduces an interesting question of being able to influence the gods or thwart death.

- How many deities do we want? One for each minor event, i.e. Fire and Lightning being seperate, or just one for all forms of fire? What is considered "important" enough to have it's own deity? 

submitted by Hex
(May 21, 2022 - 3:02 pm)

Ooh, ooh, ooh, reading this has given me a few more ideas!!!

- Yea, so maybe Fire(via sun) was born of Earth, then had a child with Sky, thus prompting Earth's initial anger and malice towards Fire (say they had a contract/promise saying neither Sky nor Earth would vye for power again, in light of what happened to Water, or something like that?)

- OR, alternatively Sun is born of Sky(Or perhaps combined effort???), and they collaborate to create Lightning, but it angers Earth or something, who kills sun in revenge, which is why in revenge of that lightning strikes fire into Earth and her creations when it lands, but holds no malice towards water? Idk, free for discussion still

- In terms of the gender stuff, maybe we have them less biologically reproductive, with those dieties who create life / other stuff being called the "Kh(n)arashii-sakhra'ha," literally meaning "Divine One(s) who Creates" or "Sacred Creator," which comes more from their creative abilities to breath life into others / make new stuff. Humans can only ever be gifted with this ability, and those who can do it are called "Lakhishi-Kh(n)arash" or literally "Great Creator Person" or "Person who Makes Well." Additionally, if people / dieties collaborate to make stuff through this method, the product will likely be a mix between their creative visions! Pls tell me what y'all think about this, or if we should change it up a but

- I'm thinking the language would mostly be a human / nearby sentient creature kind of thing, but the dieties may use  it in stories, simply since that is the language if the people (there could be a translator-diety who tells the stories of the dieties to lower beings!) 

- I'm still not sure about beastpeople kinda things... 'Cause in my mind, Sarai is fully cat-like, but also a sentient-spirit-being, but I don't know how locals would regard them... Probably with reverence, right? But I'm not sure if human-beast crosses would also be revered or rather viewed as a crime again nature??? Also, if we go along with halfs like that, maybe some part-animal-part-humans could be judged based on usefulness/dangerousness? (like a dog-person mix might be considered good since it's friendly, but perhaps lower than human if it's not as intelligent, or a feral-dog mix may be viewed as entirely dangerous, with some species/whatever they are deemed as being seen as either depending on certain factors like usefulness, intelligence, etc.)

- I also think having confusing or several intersecting plotlines within the myths is an amazing and very realistic idea! In actual mythology webs, this is completely normal, and very much to be expected. Specifically, I'd advise to keep in mind what made these changes occur in the story. Was it told in a different region of the 'Empire,' or in palace with a different culture? Or was is spread with a certain political or religious agenda in mind? Were parts lost in translation, or omitted to make their patron/favourite diety look better?, and so on and so forth.

- To me personally, I think the dieties are more or less not concerned with human matters, and only focus on their sacred eternal struggles. However, if a mere human / other sentient being become too proud and daring for their own good? Well, that's a different matter... Also, perhaps lower dieties can become more involved with people, such as the protector of a certain mountain may hold a grudge against those who harm it, or attempt to enter, etc.

- As for the actual amount of dieties... I have no idea. I'm think the Big 3 can be considered akin to 'god-status' or "god-like," and their children/creation and smaller spirits other / beings with powers can be considered kinda like yokai (Japanese supernatural thingies / spirits, essentially; they don't have to be "important" in the grand scheme of things, only with a mind of their own / born either spontaneously or over time from residual energy/emotion/need for something), with human/sentient magicians / wizards being under that, then humans/sentients being without special abilities, then wild/nonsentient beings being lowest. Or something like that? Lemme know your thoughts.

I'll be back with more thoughts and details later, k? :) 

submitted by Jaybells, Lost, somewhere
(May 21, 2022 - 7:18 pm)

Ooh, and maybe types of fire, lightning, sun, (etc.) could be considered offshoots, siblings, the same diety(Either altogether or different 'sides' of them), or completely separate deities, depending on who's perspective it's coming from / who is telling the myth.

submitted by Jay@Hex, Lost, somewhere
(May 21, 2022 - 7:25 pm)

Quick thought -- what do y'all think our CS people would write with/on? Gouging clay tablets, papyrus-like stuff, chiselling into stone? Something completely different? 

Mostly considering this since it'd effect the way their script looks... Speaking of which, do you think we should do a phonetic/syllabic script(basically, each letter/symbol has a sound/syllable that it makes; think Japanese kana, Hebrew, Spanish, Latin, Greek, Korean, etc., most certainly NOT English with all of its oddities...) or symbolic, where each symbol holds more significance in idea, rather than sound (think Chinese, Japanese kanji, early Egyptian and cuneiform, etc.) and looks more like a small picture/combination of pictures than more traditional "letters?"
Perhaps we could even have a kind of system where regular people every-day stuff have a phonetic alphabet, but for religious/important stuff there are highly trained scribe-priests who can white the symbolic way. (Think, kinda how like Latin was used by the elite in Roman Catholic mass services and acedemic literature in much of Medieval Europe, while the common person spoke and was literate in their local language instead) That, I think, would be neat, considering that so much of the language is based on the Big 3 mythology. :)
submitted by Jaybells, Lost in a Brainstorm
(May 23, 2022 - 9:37 am)

A pro for clay would be durability. It would be a cruder place to write, but it would last longer. I also like papyrus-like material, although what would they use for ink? Maybe some kind of animal/berry in the area could produce it when crushed.

I remember we talked breifly about the peoples living underwater, so that might lead to an interesting recording system, like inputting sound into bubbles and storing them in a room so you can stick your head in the bubble and hear the story/recording.

I think a phonetic alphabet would be simpler, but I like symbolic better, especially if it would be on clay, as writing might be time consuming. Also kanji looks really cool when written out, but that's kind of beyond the point.

I like how different alphabets would go with different social status, kind of like witheld information by the upper class. We could also have different families specilize in different things, like one family makes weapons and another is scribes (kind of like trades or guilds, not necessarily by blood).

submitted by Hex
(May 23, 2022 - 11:36 am)

Mn-hm, all good points! :D

submitted by Jaybells, Lost, somewhere
(May 23, 2022 - 5:29 pm)

Another mini-thought, gold could be called sun-juice! 

I honestly have no idea why I find that so delightful... But that's probably not a very good word for it anyway, lol. Sun-rock, though? Idk... I'll stop now.

submitted by Jaybells, Lost in a Thought...
(May 23, 2022 - 11:45 am)

Ha, that's great! 

Okay, I read through all that, and it basically sounds good to me. I'm really busy right now, so I can't spend too much time on this, sorry. 

I like the idea of having the main 3 deities, then having lesser spirits that are like their children, or whatever we'll call them. There could even be an unknown number of lesser spirits, kind of like there was a temple to an "unknown god" in Athens, in case they forgot anyone. The lesser spirits wouldn't be worshipped, but they would be revered to some extent. 

I've never tried making a language using symbolic letters. It sounds so cool, but like Hex said, it would be a lot of work. Whatever best fits our purpose! The language can also evolve, so we don't necessarily need to decide everything right now. 

Please remember that Admins generally will not post text in a foreign or invented language or code. We have agreed to the use of a few invented words at a time if the meaning is also given.

Admin

submitted by Flamarestii
(May 23, 2022 - 9:18 pm)

Another idea occurred to me while I was looking over the mythological-character concept designs:

There could be a night 'goddess'(using the term lightly, since we're both reconsidering pronouns/gender as well as official diety status :/), who has the form of a spider. Night-spider has a rivalry with Sun, and as Sky's other child (or eldest child, if Sun is Earth's creation) once Sun is killed, Night-spider is finally the most favoured/best known child of the Big 3 and fills Sky's eyes/heart while Sun is dead. The stars are little spider eggs. :)

I honestly have no idea if that'll work, but it seemed like a cool idea.  

submitted by Jaybells, Lost in a Thought
(May 24, 2022 - 2:13 pm)

OK, so here's my current concept for Shora-Makra ("Water Again;" the brought-back darker version of Water/Shora) as an avatar, so you all have an idea of what I'm imagining. 

1493001_0A5MdZjG.png
submitted by Jaybells, Lost, somewhere
(May 25, 2022 - 11:33 am)

Awesome!

submitted by Flamarestii
(May 25, 2022 - 8:51 pm)